SEASON 05 | EPISODE 07

We examine perhaps the most important piece of the complex puzzle of the Hartman case: what Sophie wrote about it in her journals. 

We’re joined by Dr. James Hamilton, an MBP expert with a PhD in clinical psychology, to walk us through some of Sophie’s most chilling journal entries collected in the case files. We also look at Sophie’s disturbing internet search history during the time of C’s alleged Central precocious puberty (CPP) diagnosis. 

After being separated from Sophie, M and C are placed with Sophie’s mom and sister. Detective Lee discusses the problems that arise when placing children with people that are most likely going to side with the perpetrator. In April of 2022, C and M are returned to Sophie and criminal charges are subsequently dropped. Andrea offers a key insight into how this might have happened by revealing a surprising member of Sophie’s legal team: her sister, Megan Carter.

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[00:00:05] Cold Open

[00:00:05] Andrea VO: As medical child abuse cases play out in court, they often become fixated on a certain detail. For example, in my sister’s case, one of the damning pieces [00:00:20] of evidence was video surveillance of her dumping her daughter’s anticoagulant medication onto her hospital bedsheets. This was an event that preceded the child being admitted to the pediatric ICU with a life threatening blood clot.

[00:00:33] Andrea VO: This was not the only piece of evidence, not by a long shot. There were 73, 000 pages of medical [00:00:40] records subpoenaed in this case, which were reviewed by a child abuse pediatrician who found extensive evidence of abuse. And much like Sophie Hartman’s daughter, after being separated from my sister and observed by the hospital, my niece’s health improved drastically in a short period of time.

[00:00:55] Andrea VO: But from the documentation I’ve seen, her lawyer Adam Shapiro seems to have somehow really [00:01:00] honed in on this video evidence, arguing that Megan was actually using one type of syringe rather than a different type of syringe that the hospital said she was using, and therefore the hospital staff and police officers didn’t see in that video what they thought they saw.

[00:01:15] Andrea VO: If this all sounds like it doesn’t make much sense, it doesn’t. No criminal charges were [00:01:20] ever filed against my sister. Following the family court’s return of her children during the active police investigation, the detectives ultimately referred the case to the prosecuting attorney in April of 2020, and that prosecuting attorney declined to file charges.

[00:01:34] Andrea VO: And following that, Adam Shapiro took on another medical child abuse case, Sophie Hartman.

[00:01:46] Intro

[00:01:46] [00:01:40]

[00:01:46] Andrea VO: People believe their eyes. That’s something that is so central to this topic because we do believe the people that we love when they’re telling us something. If we didn’t, you could never make it through your day. I’m Andrea [00:02:00] Dunlop, and this is Nobody Should Believe Me.

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[00:02:08] Andrea VO: If you’d like to support the show, the best way to do that is to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or on Patreon. You get all episodes early and ad free, along with extended cuts and deleted scenes from the season. You [00:02:20] also get two exclusive bonus episodes every month. And for the first time ever, we have the entire season ready for you to binge right now on the subscriber feed.

[00:02:31] Andrea VO: That’s right. You can listen to every episode of season five right this minute if you subscribe to the show. And as always, if monetary support [00:02:40] is not an option for you right now, rating and reviewing the show wherever you listen also helps us a great deal. And if there’s someone you feel needs to hear this show, please do share it with them.

[00:02:50] Andrea VO: Word of mouth is so important for independent podcasts. For even more, you can also find us on YouTube, where we have every episode as well as [00:03:00] bonus video content.

[00:03:02] Act 1

[00:03:02] Andrea VO: When I cover Munchausen by proxy cases, I approach them with a central question. If this case is not Munchausen by proxy, then what is going on here?

[00:03:11] Andrea VO: Now, I did reach out to Sophie to ask her if she’d like to give us her side of the story. story. We never got a response, but that’s a standing invitation. [00:03:20] Sophie, if you’re listening, we would be happy to hear you out. But just as we did get plenty from Sophie in her own words via her memoir about her travels to Zambia, we do hear Sophie’s account of the time leading up to this investigation.

[00:03:33] Andrea VO: And if you are inclined to believe that Sophie Hartman is innocent, this is one of the hardest [00:03:40] things to explain away. When Sophie’s children were placed in protective custody in March of 2021, the officers also served her with a residential search warrant. In the search of her rent and home, the police picked up a number of journals.

[00:03:53] Andrea VO: And Detective O’Rourke’s investigative summary, which is, in this case, an incredibly detailed narrative, [00:04:00] include scans of about two dozen journal entries that the detective had found were especially relevant to the case. These are harrowing to read, but also fascinating. They are some of the most direct insights I’ve ever gotten into the mind of someone who engages in these behaviors.

[00:04:16] Andrea VO: Much of Sophie’s writing in her journals is as florid [00:04:20] and purple as her memoir. Many entries are written directly to God, who sometimes writes back. And many, Though not all of these entries are dated, which gives us insight into what Sophie is thinking and feeling during a particular medical event. For example, when C is just under two years old, she visits the University of Washington Center [00:04:40] for Adoption Medicine, where Sophie reports that she is having seizures and weakness on her right side.

[00:04:46] Andrea VO: An MRI reveals a slight, static encephalopathy. And the doctors report that this could be indicative of mild cerebral palsy. This is long before C’s diagnosis of AHC, at the beginning [00:05:00] of this very long road. A few days later, Sophie writes in her journal, quote, I trust you, Lord, I do. I lay it all down. The heartache, the unknown, static encephalopathy, global development delay, epilepsy, speech and vision impairments, cerebral palsy, drug exposure.

[00:05:19] Andrea VO: all of it. She [00:05:20] then lists out a number of doctors names, and some other names as well, possibly people on her care team, though we don’t know. And Sophie writes all of them. I lay down. I need a word. God, or Sophie as God, then responds. Sophie, quietly persist. I see it all. Do not waver as her advocate. [00:05:40] Just keep moving forward.

[00:05:43] Andrea VO: In another entry, Sophie lays out a laundry list of symptoms and asks God to, quote, bring it into the light and to, quote, give the doctor’s wisdom to see beyond C’s cuteness and charm. God, bring forth all that she is to light. All the [00:06:00] damage done to her brain, all that isn’t working properly in her body, all that is frustrating for her, all that is debilitating, all that is destructive.

[00:06:08] Andrea VO: Bring it all into the light. She ends this entry with a lengthy list of diagnoses, which, with the exception of cerebral palsy and static encephalopathy, no doctor appears to have [00:06:20] mentioned to her. Many of Sophie’s journal entries read like a kind of fever dream, but one entry in particular is utterly straightforward.

[00:06:28] Andrea VO: This entry was on a loose leaf page, which was undated, but from context clearly after Sophie had adopted her girls. In this wrenching entry, she seems to be confronting her demons head on, laying out a [00:06:40] series of events starting from childhood and up through her time in Zambia and as an adult. She writes, How can I embrace my story if I don’t understand it?

[00:06:49] Andrea VO: How can I do this? I am bad. She remembers this pattern going back to when she was four years old, writing, Something began telling me I was only worth being on the [00:07:00] side. I needed to have a real need to be cared for. That my needs weren’t real needs. To need is to be bad. Later in that entry, she writes, to care is to be good.

[00:07:10] Andrea VO: She recalls faking a hand injury in high school, faking a knee injury, mono, and meningitis in college. She recalls a surgery she had on her ankle and remembers [00:07:20] lying to friends about it becoming infected, and then lying about some gynecological issues around the time she went to Zambia. In light of what came next, Sophie’s lies about her own health feel a bit minor, But these details mirror my sister’s story just almost beat for beat.

[00:07:35] Andrea VO: My sister had this knee surgery where they didn’t find anything once they went [00:07:40] in. Sophie talks about faking a knee injury of her own, the gynecological complications, it all just really feels like a playbook. And this journal entry from Sophie gave me such a window into what my sister’s experience of this own part of her life might have been like.

[00:07:55] Andrea VO: Sophie writes, quote, when it comes to suffering, I am a compulsive liar slash [00:08:00] exaggerator. To be cared for means to have significant need, have to have it the hardest for it to be worthy. I am not deserving of love just as I am. I push people away because I am so ashamed of who I am. I truly believe I am a bad person.

[00:08:15] Andrea VO: Too bad for Grace. And this entry seems to draw a very clear line [00:08:20] from lying about herself to what came next. It ends in desperation. She writes, quote, So angry with my children, abusive even. Hitting and pinching and yelling, Oh Lord, what have I become? Who is this bad soul? It’s me. Filth.[00:08:40]

[00:08:41] Andrea VO: These entries were a lot to process, so I brought in a heavy hitter to help me unpack them.

[00:08:46] Dr. Jim: My name is Jim Hamilton, and I have a PhD in clinical psychology, and I worked for many years as a psychology professor.

[00:08:54] Andrea VO: As someone who has dedicated his career to studying this abuse, Jim had also never seen [00:09:00] anything quite like these journals.

[00:09:01] Andrea VO: And we talked about Sophie’s recounting of her own history with medical deception.

[00:09:05] Dr. Jim: People who have engaged in medical child abuse, some significant percentage of perpetrators have a fairly clear history in their own medical records of exaggeration, fabrication, um, [00:09:20] exploitation of illness, uh, to meet their psychological needs.

[00:09:24] Dr. Jim: Um, as I looked over the snippets that you gave me to read, uh, I was struck by, by exactly that thing. That, um, she. Made some sort of comment about having to be needy in order to be needed, you know This is something we [00:09:40] try to get courts to understand When we present cases of medical child abuse and this is the part That I think is hardest for them to understand and that she articulated it so beautifully I mean I could just take the Quote from the snippet you gave me and, and, and read that in court the next time I have to, because [00:10:00] it’s so exactly what we think is going on in these cases.

[00:10:03] Dr. Jim: And we always talk about, once we find evidence that abusive behavior has, has occurred. Yeah, we want to think about, all right, we’re not so much interested in diagnosing something like factitious disorder imposed on another or malingering by [00:10:20] proxy or anything like that, but we do need to sort of articulate what the psychological need is that’s being met by this behavior.

[00:10:28] Dr. Jim: She speaks directly to the issue of need.

[00:10:30] Andrea VO: Jim and I work closely together. We’re colleagues on the American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s Munchausen by Proxy Committee and also at the non profit Munchausen Support, [00:10:40] where we both serve on the board. We spend no small amount of time in this group discussing the utility of the psychiatric diagnosis of factitious disorder imposed on another.

[00:10:49] Andrea VO: Which again is the official name for the disorder underpinning Munchausen by proxy. The notion of this being primarily a mental illness often does more harm than good in court where it tends to either create [00:11:00] confusion about a perpetrator’s culpability or just add one more complicated diagnosis to the mix for the two sides to fight over.

[00:11:07] Andrea VO: But as Jim says, it’s really impossible to tell the story of what’s happening in these cases, either in court or anywhere else, without explaining why someone would ever engage in this behavior that seems so ghastly to most [00:11:20] people. It establishes a motive.

[00:11:22] Dr. Jim: One of the things I thought about as I was reading all this is that I was trying to make sense of the fact that all of that is laid out so clearly.

[00:11:31] Dr. Jim: In a case of a problem, medical child abuse, where the perpetrators are usually very [00:11:40] fastidious about controlling information, um, keeping their, keeping the deceptions up, keeping their secrets. To commit this to writing, I was, I’m wondering, uh, what her thinking was in actually, you know, in actually doing that.

[00:11:55] Dr. Jim: Did she think no one was ever going to see it, um, or did she have [00:12:00] maybe a more complex plan in mind?

[00:12:01] Andrea VO: So why write all this down? Was she trying to soothe her own internal conflict? Was she really asking God for help? Did she really believe God was answering?

[00:12:12] Dr. Jim: The idea that these folks try to deceive themselves, that’s true, then you wouldn’t want to put it in, [00:12:20] in writing.

[00:12:22] Dr. Jim: That, that you sort of have yourself figured out for why you’re doing the things that you are denying to others that you’re doing, which is making up all of these, um, fabrications and exaggerations about your child’s illness. Um, I don’t know if you saw this, I don’t know if anybody but me saw [00:12:40] this, but um, in the snippets that you gave me to read, um, at some point it said capital D, capital I, capital D.

[00:12:49] Dr. Jim: Yes. Which is an abbreviation for dissociative identity disorder. And I noted that somebody mentioned that, um, that [00:13:00] these things were in different handwritings. The notations that, that she was, she herself made, uh, were in different handwriting, depending on what the topic was, et cetera. Two possibilities.

[00:13:13] Dr. Jim: about that. Maybe she didn’t mean anything by writing DID. That’s one. I guess that’s three possibilities. [00:13:20] Uh, another is that she has something like dissociative identity disorder. And a third is that this is the reason she’s writing all this stuff down in this peculiar way is she’s preparing kind of a, um, a defense or an explanation for why she’s done what she’s done.

[00:13:36] Andrea VO: This is an interesting theory, that the discovery of [00:13:40] these diaries was part of some master plan on Sophie’s part. And frankly, I’m not going to put anything past her at this point. But I’ve spent no small amount of time reading through and digesting these journals. And they often sound like Sophie is writing herself a very grandiose and fanciful story about what she’s doing.

[00:13:58] Andrea VO: That this is an elaborate [00:14:00] justification to herself about what she’s putting her daughters through. that Sophie actually is the hero of this story.

[00:14:06] Dr. Jim: What laid bare in these diaries, the selfishness of it all. This is not about C. H., this is about Ms. Hartman. In this case, uh, in a lot of the documents that, uh, that I’ve read, the [00:14:20] mom seems to have this sense of entitlement.

[00:14:23] Dr. Jim: Like they have to treat me. They have to care for me. They have to do this. They have to do that because that’s what I want. And that’s what my child needs. Um, very unselfconscious about how entitled and, and selfish, uh, she is. [00:14:40] Um, and I, and those things in the diary, um, I don’t know that she was. Uh, as, as self aware about the selfishness as she was in other parts where she was self aware about her neediness.

[00:14:54] Dr. Jim: But, of course, they’re related.

[00:14:56] Andrea VO: What we learn from these diary entries about, um, [00:15:00] about her dynamics with her children and in this section where she’s being very honest and straightforward, you know, she has this quote. That, um, I’m so angry with my children, abusive even, hitting and pinching and yelling, Oh Lord, what have I become?

[00:15:16] Andrea VO: Who is this bad soul? It’s me. Filth. [00:15:20] Um, you know, and I want, it says like, I want to be abused. I crave pain. Um, and obviously this is just, you know, disturbing to read. And I think, um, there’s a through line here actually for, you know, I, I think one of the things that I didn’t realize about this abuse when I was Going in right before I, when I, [00:15:40] when I just had my end of one, that was my personal experience was and that we have learned is not the case from so many survivors, including, you know, Joe, who is who we both know, who is on our fourth season, um, is that this abuse is not confined to the medical arena, right?

[00:15:55] Andrea VO: There’s this profound lack of empathy for the children, and I [00:16:00] think like that journal entry from Sophie really expresses that. And then the other thing that really stuck out to me was these journal entries. You know, there are some journal entries from her older daughter, M, um, that were just really, really heartbreaking.

[00:16:13] Andrea VO: The investigative summary includes many journal entries from Sophie, but also some from Sophie’s older daughter, M. [00:16:20] As well as letters that she wrote to her mom, and these were so sad to read. While M wasn’t the main subject of this investigation, she was also obviously deeply affected by what was happening in the household.

[00:16:32] Andrea VO: And while there is less in here about M’s medical history than C’s, we do know that she’d been prescribed antidepressants and ADHD medications, [00:16:40] and she writes in her journals about her brain feeling fuzzy and confused. And heartbreakingly, her journals also include reflections on her being a freak and Zambians being freaky people.

[00:16:51] Andrea VO: And to the extent that M was, to borrow Jim’s metaphor, a prop in Sophie’s play, her role seems to have been gymnastic star. You can [00:17:00] see her straining for her mother’s approval. In one letter to Sophie, she writes about feeling like she’s just a gymnast, and that she has to be a perfect one. A reflection we also heard about from the moms at the gym and Sophie’s neighbor.

[00:17:11] Andrea VO: Em writes that she only wants to make her mom happy, but she feels like if she makes a mistake her mom will be angry and yell, and she clearly blames [00:17:20] herself for her mom’s anger. The report also includes one of Sophie’s responses, where she writes, quote, I’m sorry I put all my anger on you when you make a mistake.

[00:17:28] Andrea VO: I’m sorry for screaming. I’m sorry for saying that you were being a shitshow.

[00:17:34] Dr. Jim: comments she makes about being emotionally abusive to her kids and being cruel to them. [00:17:40] Um, I’ve seen that in other cases as well. I had a case, uh, down south when I lived there, babysitter was, uh, available as a collateral.

[00:17:51] Dr. Jim: Informant and the babysitter commented on how inattentive unrealistically demanding of like [00:18:00] the child when the child was too young to be expected to do this or that or the other thing, the mob was expecting it, um, quick to anger. Not warm, you know, not loving and the contrast between the gushy, wonderful mom, loving, caring mom would do anything for their [00:18:20] kid would make you think that when you saw them at home, um, and they weren’t being watched by anybody, you’d see the same amount of gushing over the child, but, um, it really, you know, It’s all a play and, um, you and I, uh, recently had the opportunity to speak to some forensic psychiatrists about this and [00:18:40] I, I sort of previewed my, my, uh, developing view that this is much more like a kind of exploitation abuse than it is an event.

[00:18:51] Dr. Jim: Related abuse, um, and I talked about the idea that in this play, in this drama that these perpetrators, um, [00:19:00] Create, where they’re both the director and the main character, the most important character. The child is not really even a character, the child’s a prop. And so, it, it’s consistent with that formulation.

[00:19:14] Dr. Jim: You know, at home, the mother’s selfish, and if it’s between her needs and the kid’s [00:19:20] needs, it’s gonna be her needs. I’m pretty sure M probably just felt ignored by this. She wasn’t, she wasn’t apparently used as a prop. Um, she wasn’t getting any of this, uh, attention that’s associated with the circumstance that, um, [00:19:40] Sophie created for C and, um, And, and that’s, you know, that’s terribly sad.

[00:19:48] Andrea VO: But the most disturbing narrative in these pages is the one about C’s death. And these reflections are not isolated. Sophie was telling many people C would die young, and the forensic examination of her [00:20:00] devices revealed a number of chilling searches.

[00:20:02] Dr. Jim: The fact that the Topic came up of, um, songs associated with cancer.

[00:20:09] Dr. Jim: I thought that was interesting. That was among the search history terms that, uh, that were in the documents that you shared with me. And, um, that made me [00:20:20] wonder if she was thinking through season two, or maybe it was season three at this point, um, starting to put together the storyboard for the next chapter, I forget the abbreviation for the, For the illness that she claimed that, uh, CM had as that chapter get was drawing to a close, what else was [00:20:40] she going to do?

[00:20:40] Dr. Jim: And the idea that that could include something like cancer, it could also include something like expecting her death or who knows. So yeah, that, that was a, that was a bit chilling and it really sort of speaks to the idea that this, there might be self deception involved, but this[00:21:00]

[00:21:01] Andrea VO: In the spring of 2019, the day after Seattle Children’s denies one of her requests to place a central line in her daughter and put her on TPN, which is intravenous nutrition, Sophie writes this. How is it that doctors, who had never heard of AHC before they came to work today, get to make decisions regarding her care?

[00:21:19] Andrea VO: [00:21:20] I will absolutely fail C if I fight for the duration of her life rather than the quality of it. The best decisions that have been made for C in the past have been big ones that I suggested far before any member of her team was ready to do it. Stalling those decisions only let doctors check off their boxes while her suffering was [00:21:40] prolonged.

[00:21:40] Andrea VO: Is this what it will always be like? Or are there doctors willing to take risks for the sake of her quality of life? In another entry that is undated, but presumably from around this same time, Sophie writes this, I know, Lord, I know this fear in ever increasing measure. I do not want to live in [00:22:00] fear, but fear oversees life, grips me at times.

[00:22:04] Andrea VO: I wonder, how would I ever go on if you brought her home? Later in this entry, God, or again, Sophie as God, responds, saying, Give C to me, Sophie.[00:22:20]

[00:22:21] Andrea VO: She had been starting to talk even in this journal entries and elsewhere about quality of life over length of life. Um, and, you know, had sent messages to friends saying, Oh, well, when, you know, I was just thinking if C dies, I’ll call Cassie and make her come lie in bed with me while I cry. I mean, it just really, it [00:22:40] seems like she was, That’s a good example.

[00:22:42] Dr. Jim: of this idea that she’s storyboarding.

[00:22:44] Andrea VO: I sort of wanted to run that theory by you. Um, you know, not, we can only speculate in this case or in any given case, but, but I sort of wonder if there is some point where the death of the child actually becomes more useful to the [00:23:00] perpetrator.

[00:23:00] Dr. Jim: I think it’s all a matter of the specific tastes of the, um, perpetrator.

[00:23:06] Dr. Jim: What kind of sympathy thereafter, I think you, you referred to, and I think we were more and more in this conversation referring to this idea of a narrative that this kind of abuse, again, is a prolonged abuse. It’s a, it’s a, [00:23:20] it’s a storytelling abuse. Um, and the, this particular feature that, um, you’re talking about of the death of the child in some way, you know, it fixes the story.

[00:23:35] Dr. Jim: Like, the story can’t have a surprise ending where the kid goes on the [00:23:40] Dr. Phil show in five years or ten years and says, I had this mom who did all these terrible things to me. Um, I realized more than she knew and I knew that I was, I was being medically abused. Nothing could have happened to the story if the, if the child dies.

[00:23:59] Dr. Jim: So there’s a, [00:24:00] a sense of narrative control. It’s, it’s very poignant as you say. It, it opens up. Um, you know, I use the, the, the analogy of planning for season two or season three. It opens up a whole new season, a whole new, uh, sort of chapter of Sophie’s story or the perpetrator story, whoever it might be.

[00:24:19] Andrea VO: [00:24:20] Sophie as narrator in this particular case is especially compelling because she is literally narrating this imaginary world that she’s building for herself. And as a writer, you can see in some of these entries that she’s actively planning out her next book. You can also see in her writing how she is tying this all in to the grandest narrative of all, [00:24:40] the notion that Sophie is on a divine mission.

[00:24:43] Andrea VO: She frequently refers to C as her quote, harvest, which is biblically loaded language that speaks to this idea that C and her suffering, and of course Sophie’s suffering as her mother, will bring souls to God. that there is a higher purpose for C’s pain. Sophie talks about how [00:25:00] suffering is holy, and elsewhere asks God how he could bear to sacrifice his only son.

[00:25:06] Andrea VO: Sophie is heroine and martyr all at once. The sacrifice of her daughter is positioned as divine. And in a very real way, when you look at the search terms from the forensic examination of Sophie’s devices, you can see [00:25:20] her storyboarding her next season. In the first year of the pandemic, Sophie starts weaving a new plot for Cee.

[00:25:26] Andrea VO: Now in addition to the age Cee diagnosis, she adds in the precocious puberty storyline. So to ground us, here is what happened in reality. Sophie brings Cee to an endocrinologist at Seattle Children’s in July of 2020. [00:25:40] reporting a bunch of symptoms that she says have her concerned for precocious puberty.

[00:25:45] Andrea VO: In this exam, there are modest clinical findings, but these are discordant with lab results and a bone scan that shows no signs of precocious puberty. C also has an MRI to rule out any brain mass. that might be causing the symptoms Sophie is reporting, and [00:26:00] this comes back clear, and a follow up examination of C shows her to be completely normal.

[00:26:05] Andrea VO: Sophie then continues to push for a surgical hormone implant against doctor’s recommendations, insisting that these quote cycles that C is experiencing are exacerbating her age C episodes. And during this time, she also tells friends and [00:26:20] providers that C is in full blown puberty and that the likely cause is a brain mass.

[00:26:27] Andrea VO: So, what do we know about what Sophie was up to on her devices during this time? Her search history shows numerous telling entries, including precocious puberty, pituitary tumor symptoms, and [00:26:40] pituitary adenoma surgery. She also searches supra catheter, which is a surgically placed catheter for people who cannot urinate on their own, which is one of the symptoms that Sophie was reporting to the endocrinologist.

[00:26:52] Andrea VO: Sophie also looks up a foundation that is dedicated to children with endocrine disorders. So it’s not just the next [00:27:00] diagnosis she’s pursuing, she’s also looking for the worst possible reason for this diagnosis, a brain tumor, which she reported to C’s doctors and teachers, as well as a possible surgery for that tumor to pursue and additional surgical interventions for the symptoms she’s reporting.

[00:27:17] Andrea VO: And she’s looking for the next foundation to support all of these [00:27:20] efforts. It’s honestly Diabolical. There are also, as Jim mentions, a few searches around cancer as well as searches related to leukemia. At first, I assumed this had to do with another possible storyline for C, but then I saw that one of the searches was Down syndrome and leukemia.

[00:27:39] Andrea VO: And I [00:27:40] remembered that during the investigation, Sophie was actively attempting to adopt a child from China with Down syndrome. She also looked up Infusion Center Valley Medical. Now, infusion care can be used for a number of things. But it’s best known for chemotherapy treatments. So again, this looks like part of [00:28:00] a plan.

[00:28:00] Andrea VO: And Valley Medical, by the way, this is a brand new hospital in the area that she can try out after ostensibly having worn out her welcome at Mary Bridge and Seattle Children’s. Sure seems like she has her sights set on a whole new spin off series. And while her daughters are the primary victims in all of this, they are far from the only people who got hurt.[00:28:20]

[00:28:20] Dr. Jim: The terrible thing about all of this really is that people who have genuinely ill children and who are genuinely You know, grieving and in need of support and, and coalescing with others around that experience are harmed by this rare disease [00:28:40] groups, rare disease advocacy groups, researchers and parents and such are really harmed by when.

[00:28:47] Dr. Jim: A situation where somebody sort of co ops this rare disease, um, perhaps spoiling research data, perhaps, uh, as I said, casting suspicion upon everybody else who’s, who says they have [00:29:00] it. It’s, it’s awful. It’s the depth of the thoughtlessness and selfishness really expressed, I think, in some of his most depressing ways.

[00:29:09] Andrea VO: AHC didn’t just support Sophie emotionally, they supported her financially. helping pay to send her and C out to Duke to see Dr. McCaudy. And as [00:29:20] for the research, Sophie was reporting things way outside the norm for AHC, like severe gastrointestinal issues and 32 day long episodes. It’s easy to see how a case like this in such a small sample set of real cases could really throw off the data.

[00:29:37] Andrea VO: So far from Sophie’s efforts with C, [00:29:40] quote, helping the cause, as Sophie wrote about, or quote, leading to a scientific breakthrough, they’re messing with that progress and taking resources that she’d be going to children who desperately need them. Back in the spring of 2021, C and M are living with Sophie’s sister Sam and her mother Anne.

[00:29:59] Andrea VO: Sophie [00:30:00] is arrested in May of 2021, but her parents quickly bail her out. She is granted supervised visitation with the girls, and while Sophie at first claims she is staying with a friend quite a ways away in Mercer Island, it comes out later that she is in fact staying very close to the house where the girls are.

[00:30:16] Andrea VO: This whole thing is an epic fail, just an absolute [00:30:20] disaster from a protocol standpoint. As we outline in our American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children guidelines for these investigations, it is crucial that children are not placed with a family member who does not believe the abuse The guidelines also recommend against visitation because of the intense psychological manipulation involved in this abuse.[00:30:40]

[00:30:40] Andrea VO: And certainly, allowing a suspected perpetrator to bring the children food and drink, as Sophie did, should never be allowed. No one doubts that. That separating a child from their parent is very hard on everyone. But when the safety of the child is in question, we have to take that seriously. Detective Lee explains why it’s necessary to be [00:31:00] vigilant around custody placements in any abuse case.

[00:31:05] Det. Lee: The fundamental aspect of that that we really have to consider is in a case like this one, where the only other family members that maybe could. Take them just happen to be people that you can reasonably expect are going to [00:31:20] align with the perpetrator and her narrative. And they’re like, well, we need to put the child somewhere else.

[00:31:25] Det. Lee: They’re going to start asking the family again, right? And then maybe they go and they ask dad’s mom, like, hey, so this is paternal grandmother. This is the mother of the accused individual. Hey, can you watch her so that we can keep this separation during this time? Sure, I can do it. She [00:31:40] passes the home test.

[00:31:40] Det. Lee: Everything’s good to go. The child goes over there during the entire time she’s there. She’s being told how could you ever say something like that about your father. He has done all these things for you You know what Santa Claus doesn’t come around and give presents to little kids that tell lies like that.

[00:31:56] Det. Lee: You know, Jesus is watching He’s not happy with you either. X, Y, and [00:32:00] Z. So they get told all of these things and it creates this an additional barrier for them. This, this manipulation is being applied across all forms of abuse, but especially in these areas where like mom and aunt are going to have a vested interest in controlling this narrative.

[00:32:17] Det. Lee: And if it’s not in manipulating the child to do something, it. [00:32:20] is absolutely, uh, it tra say, okay, we’re still go the hospital. We still be all these conditions. We Children’s is the devil b that they are.

[00:32:31] Andrea VO: Sophie’s f that they believe anything other than that Sophie is a wrongly accused mother, [00:32:40] meaning they cannot be counted on to protect the girls from her.

[00:32:44] Andrea VO: Dr. McCaudy himself, who both Sophie and her attorneys insisted was the one who really understood C’s health, told the police that C needed to be with an objective observer and that if grandmother is going to be a bias observer, that is going to be a big, [00:33:00] big problem. Throughout the investigation, Anne and Sam consistently reported behavioral issues in C, which again, they appear to be interpreting as evidence of her having aged C episodes.

[00:33:12] Andrea VO: And they also report one very strange detail, that C is trying to eat grass and paper. The only other place a mention [00:33:20] of such behavior shows up is in a report that Sophie made to a representative from the Developmental Disabilities Administration. Now, there are several possibilities here. The least likely being that C, out of nowhere, started trying to eat grass.

[00:33:34] Andrea VO: The other two options are that Sam and Ann knowingly lied to the police, or that Sophie’s influence [00:33:40] on them during this time was so strong that they believed the behavioral issues they were witnessing in C were really symptoms. Even then, this particular detail about her eating paper and grass is tough to get past.

[00:33:53] Andrea VO: Oh yes, and by the way, the supervision of Sophie with the girls, this was provided by a private [00:34:00] company paid for by the Hartmans. Sophie was also allowed to bring food and drinks for the girls to these visits, and this whole situation just sounds incredibly lax. But these are the kinds of accommodations that money can buy you, and that’s not all it can do.

[00:34:14] Andrea VO: In April of 2022, a family court judge returned C& M to Sophie’s Care, [00:34:20] and the criminal charges were dismissed the following summer. A local headline read, Renton Mother Cleared in Medical Child Abuse Case.

[00:34:34] Act 2 – Ad Break

[00:34:34] Andrea VO: So in the summer of 2022, the criminal case against Sophie is dismissed, and because this [00:34:40] all took place in family court, Rather than criminal, we were not able to obtain records to tell us what happened during the dependency trial, which is the DCF side of the equation, to try to make sense of these events.

[00:34:51] Andrea VO: We spoke to Olivia Lavo, the journalist who originally broke the story of this case,

[00:34:56] Olivia: a case like this, particularly when there is so much [00:35:00] media attention, you know. When the case is dismissed it sends the message of Okay. Well, I guess the person didn’t do it to the general person, right? If you’re hearing that the case is dismissed the average person is gonna say, oh, well there obviously wasn’t evidence then so So, you know, [00:35:20] knowing all that was in that search warrant, I was really interested in trying to understand what had happened in the last two years to then get to that point.

[00:35:31] Olivia: Yeah, and were you able to discover anything about why that got dismissed? What I found was that initially the case was dropped down [00:35:40] from felony court to misdemeanor court. So, just thinking about it being dropped from a felony to a misdemeanor, that in itself was really surprising. Um, I never was able to understand why that happened.

[00:35:58] Olivia: Prosecutor, no one from the [00:36:00] prosecutor’s office was ever able to say, um, I mean, of course they had their reasons, but they just didn’t feel like sharing. Didn’t feel like sharing, I guess. But the implication is Well, obviously, new information must have came up that made the [00:36:20] case not as strong or, you know, some, right?

[00:36:23] Olivia: I mean, to think of it going from a felony to a misdemeanor. Like an anti smoking gun

[00:36:26] Andrea VO: appeared, sort of, type thing, like.

[00:36:28] Olivia: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it makes, it means that the crime is less serious in the eyes of the law. So what happened to make this [00:36:40] crime less serious in legally. Um, and so, yeah, I never was really able to get a clear understanding on that, which was frustrating.

[00:36:52] Olivia: Um, but what I thought was really interesting about the case being dismissed was It was a [00:37:00] conditional thing. It was like, okay, we’re, uh, both sides and the judge, we’re all agreeing to these conditions, and if these conditions are met, then the case will be dismissed.

[00:37:15] Andrea VO: Here are those conditions. CH shall enroll in in person [00:37:20] education slash school and will notify the state of the school slash school district upon enrollment prior to September of 2022.

[00:37:27] Andrea VO: The defendant shall have CH continue to participate with the same care medical team and her primary pediatrician, Dr. Nauert. The defendant will comply with the care team’s recommendations. Specifically, the [00:37:40] defendant shall comply with the care medical team’s recommendations related to CH’s ingestion of food and water.

[00:37:45] Andrea VO: And use of her c ostomy tube. The defendant shall not have CH use a wheelchair unless recommended by the care team. The defendant shall not make any medical decisions for CH Anne Hartman or Samantha Ferris will have medical decision making authority [00:38:00] for ch. The defendant may attend CH h’s medical appointments.

[00:38:04] Andrea VO: And interestingly, this last one, the defendant shall comply with an order to surrender weapons. Because the relevant back and forth happened in family court, we can’t say for sure why Sophie’s children were returned or why exactly the charges got dropped. But I can offer some [00:38:20] insight. This is the exact path my sister’s case went down and unfortunately, the way many of them play out.

[00:38:26] Andrea VO: For the most part, family court judges just don’t understand what this abuse is or how to handle it, as evidenced by their truly bananas placement and supervision decisions in this case. If family court gives the kids back, it means that DCF [00:38:40] has failed to establish dependency, for which you only need a preponderance of evidence, not evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.

[00:38:47] Andrea VO: Now, it’s not impossible to prevail in criminal court in such a scenario, the Danita Tuck case in Texas is one example, but it’s definitely an uphill battle, and it’s not a chance that many prosecutors want to take.

[00:38:59] Olivia: [00:39:00] Prosecutors are not going to file charges if they don’t think they have a really strong case.

[00:39:07] Olivia: That was something that I keep in mind always, but particularly with a case like this, they knew that this case was going to be a big media story. And they also knew that this case was complicated and not something that their [00:39:20] prosecutors, I think, have a ton of experience in. So it’s, so it’s a big deal to file charges.

[00:39:27] Olivia: Like you’re not going to do that if you don’t think that case is really strong. But on the other hand, I also feel that with the case that has gotten media attention that people care about, they, you know, they know about to [00:39:40] dismiss that case is also a really, really big deal. And if I’m prosecutors, I’m not going to dismiss that case unless I really think the case sucks and has no shot and, you know, did they dismiss it because they thought, well, at least we could get [00:40:00] her to agree to these conditions.

[00:40:02] Olivia: I don’t know. It’s a, it’s, it’s a pretty crazy situation. And it’s, I think it’s also a really unpleasant scenario for anyone to think about any case in general. We know this happens, but it’s unpleasant to think of a case where prosecutors dismiss it, even though they believe. [00:40:20] That the person is guilty of the allegations, but they just can’t prove it.

[00:40:25] Andrea VO: So this case did get media attention, but this happened in the summer of 2021. There was a lot going on, so I don’t know if there was much outrage left in folks for this case getting dismissed. I mean, I certainly found some despair, but, you know, that’s me. And I think [00:40:40] Olivia is right that most people see a headline that says mom cleared and assume okay, these accusations must have been wrong.

[00:40:47] Andrea VO: And Sophie’s well off parents appear to have circled the wagons. They reportedly spent millions of dollars on her defense. And this didn’t even go to criminal trial. So what did they spend that money on? Well, for one thing, [00:41:00] hiring experts such as Dr. Eli Neuberger, whose name you may recognize as he pops up in just about every high profile Munchausen by proxy case, including the Maya Kowalski case, where he was paid 160, 000 for his deposition on behalf of the Kowalskis.

[00:41:15] Andrea VO: Dr. Eli Neuberger, who passed away this year, was himself a [00:41:20] fascinating character, and I will certainly devote an episode to him at some point. But needless to say, I was not surprised that he showed up in this case. They also likely spent a good portion of this money on their top shelf lawyers. Their lead attorney, Adam Shapiro, I happen to know is very expensive, because he also represented my sister Megan in both of her investigations.[00:41:40]

[00:41:40] Andrea VO: And Sophie didn’t just have Megan’s lawyers. She had Megan herself, who actually worked on this case, and reportedly became quite close with the Hartmans.

[00:41:55] Ad Break – Act 3

[00:41:55] Andrea VO: The evidence that I’ve seen in this [00:42:00] case seems overwhelming. And even though the case was dismissed, the court appears to know that something was wrong. Otherwise, why tell Sophie that she needs to put her daughter in school, comply with the doctor’s feeding recommendations, and, you know, not put her in a wheelchair?

[00:42:16] Andrea VO: And with all of this, why would her parents continue to support her? [00:42:20] What were they thinking? We did reach out to the Hartmans, as well as Sophie’s sister Sam Ferris, but we never heard back from any of them about doing an interview. So, I did the next best thing. I asked my own dad, Mike Dunlop, why he hired Adam Shapiro.

[00:42:33] Mike Dunlop: I’m Andrea Dunlop’s father. I’ve been her father for a long time, in fact, ever since she [00:42:40] was born, and, uh, so, that’s who I am. I

[00:42:43] Andrea VO: walked my dad through all of the many parallels with this case and the one in our family. And now my parents never thought Megan was innocent, as Sophie’s parents appear to. But they did make the very same phone call to Adam Shapiro that the Hartmans did.

[00:42:58] Mike Dunlop: Well, what I told their Tommy, I [00:43:00] told Shapiro. This is what I want, you know, I want, uh, Megan to get treatment. Uh, there’s no doubt in my mind. She’s seriously ill and, uh, his job is to make sure that she gets treatment. And unfortunately he went completely against my wishes. [00:43:20] And, uh, he sort of claimed that he’s representing Megan, even though I was paying the bills.

[00:43:25] Mike Dunlop: Right, and I,

[00:43:26] Andrea VO: I think, I think they have to do that. I mean, I don’t think you can, but he should have, I suppose, I mean, he, if he gave you the impression in your first conversations with him that he could do that, that he could like, because you were paying the bills, sort of [00:43:40] act on your behalf, I mean, I don’t think that would be legal or ethical.

[00:43:42] Andrea VO: Well,

[00:43:43] Mike Dunlop: it’s not, it wasn’t, it was what I wanted him to create as an outcome. And to first, you know, this was an incident that we could utilize to help Megan and that was

[00:43:57] Andrea VO: right. Sort of things have come to a head. Yes.

[00:43:59] Mike Dunlop: [00:44:00] And, uh, you know, she needs legal representation because You know, it’s in the hands of the state and, um, he, uh, one of the things I’ve compartmentalized is, uh, the horror that this man, uh, in my opinion could, uh, you know, um, not only and not [00:44:20] represent her best interests in my opinion, but actually take, you know, defend her against something.

[00:44:25] Mike Dunlop: That she did. And, um, and then has now tried to make a career out of it.

[00:44:30] Andrea VO: If it sounds like we were woefully naive about all of this, we were. We had never had any interactions with DCF before the first investigation into my sister 14 [00:44:40] years ago. And though I disagreed with my dad’s decision to hire attorneys for Megan and her husband Andy in the beginning, all these years later, now that I’m a parent myself, I understand.

[00:44:50] Andrea VO: He wanted to protect his child and his grandchild. He thought he could influence the outcome. And when he realized he couldn’t, he stopped paying Adam Shapiro’s bills. But [00:45:00] Shapiro has stuck around, and he’s done a lot of work on my sister’s behalf. He also defended her in the second investigation over my niece, and he sent me various cease and desist letters over the years.

[00:45:11] Andrea VO: I suspect it’s likely that some of this work has been pro bono, and he and Megan obviously became close, which could explain how she got hired on the Hartman case despite [00:45:20] having, to my knowledge, no legal training. I can understand Sophie’s family being in shock when this all came up, and for doing what people with means usually do in a legal crisis, lawyering up.

[00:45:30] Andrea VO: It’s really difficult to accept that someone you love could be capable of this, and I understand parents wanting to protect their daughter. So I can forgive them for not knowing what to [00:45:40] do right away. Just as I can forgive my brother in law and his parents for not seeing what we saw right from the beginning.

[00:45:46] Andrea VO: What I can’t forgive is staying in denial and letting the children suffer while you’re presented with more and more evidence that something is wrong. The first investigation into Megan, prompted by her push for the G tube surgery, came [00:46:00] to, well, not much. After an eight month investigation, DCF declined to file dependency, meaning that Megan would regain full custody of her son.

[00:46:09] Andrea VO: There was no criminal investigation this first time, though there should have been. Whether it would have made a difference is another question altogether. My parents and I had been thoroughly iced out by the end of the first [00:46:20] investigation. We were the enemy who’d accused Megan of abuse. But from what the social worker was able to share with us, it sounds like the court essentially told Megan that she needed some therapy.

[00:46:29] Andrea VO: Megan frames this first investigation as going nowhere because DCF found no evidence of abuse. But a great many DCF investigations end this way, with a parenting plan and nothing [00:46:40] further. And given how prevalent the idea of medical child abuse being a matter of a mom’s mind, I can’t say I’m surprised with this outcome.

[00:46:48] Andrea VO: My parents and I were bereft when DCF didn’t file for dependency. They’d revealed to Megan and her husband early on that my mom had told the doctors about her concerns, and this revelation had blown up my family. [00:47:00] And then, they hadn’t done anything to protect the kids. But then, not long after this all happened, my father got a message from my sister’s husband, Andy.

[00:47:09] Andrea VO: He’d been on his own journey of revelation with Megan, completely separate from the abuse investigation. Megan’s crippling debt, much of this from unpaid medical bills, [00:47:20] had come to light, and there were threats, Andy told my dad, to garnish his wages. This was bizarre because my dad had asked Megan many times to send him all of her remaining bills and he’d pay them.

[00:47:31] Andrea VO: But of course, then he’d see them. So maybe not such a mystery why she didn’t share. And it wasn’t just the money. In a detail that I thought was a [00:47:40] bizarre outlier to Megan’s story, until I heard it from multiple other fathers who’d been married to perpetrators, and Andy had discovered evidence of numerous affairs.

[00:47:50] Andrea VO: We were honestly relieved when this all came out because Megan couldn’t blame any of this on us. And now that Andy had seen how deceptive she could be with his own eyes, [00:48:00] he’d come around, right? In a lengthy series of emails between him and my father, Andy tells him that he wants to help us reconcile with Megan.

[00:48:09] Andrea VO: He said he knows Megan needs help, but he continues to insist that she never lie about her child’s health, that their son really does have all of these issues. In that case, [00:48:20] my dad writes to him, please send us his medical records so we can see for ourselves and put our concerns to rest. He refuses, telling my dad that it’s quote, not appropriate to share them with him, which is pretty rich coming from someone who is hitting up his estranged father in law for money.

[00:48:38] Andrea VO: The back and forth [00:48:40] continues until Andy arranges a meeting with him, my father, and Megan.

[00:48:44] Mike Dunlop: Their whole motivation was, how can we sue the hospital?

[00:48:48] Andrea VO: Yeah. I mean, were you surprised at the gall of that? I mean, it’s like, they were in a It’s It’s not [00:49:00] surprising in the context of Megan and her behavior, but like, it’s a, it’s a sort of a shocking move in some ways, you know?

[00:49:08] Mike Dunlop: Andy saw it as a, as a ticket out of their financial problems.

[00:49:13] Andrea VO: So they wanted you. To fund their legal pursuit of suing Children’s Hospital for falsely accusing. [00:49:20] Yes And what did you have to say to that?

[00:49:22] Mike Dunlop: I said no, I believe that what they said is correct and I’ve no intention of doing that and I think that is That’s extortion.

[00:49:33] Mike Dunlop: That’s not just that’s suing that’s extortion You’re trying to get money out of them when you have no [00:49:40] rationale for it whatsoever

[00:49:41] Andrea VO: I believe, but I mean, was that your last conversation with Megan?

[00:49:44] Mike Dunlop: Yep, I said goodbye and I, to be honest, I didn’t expect to see her again.

[00:49:52] Andrea VO: Any family member who finds themself in this situation faces a horrible choice. Do the right thing to protect the children and risk your [00:50:00] relationship with the perpetrator or look the other way and become an enabler of the abuse. And if the state doesn’t do anything, or if they’re not successful in court, you lose both your family member and their children forever.

[00:50:13] Andrea VO: And as the children’s aunt and grandparents, we don’t have any rights. So speak up or don’t. It’s a [00:50:20] hard choice, but to me, it’s a clear choice. You don’t ignore it when children are being harmed. Megan’s husband and his parents chose denial. And I will never forgive them. But Sophie’s parents were in a different position than mine.

[00:50:33] Andrea VO: For one thing, there was no partner, and no in laws who could provide support if they didn’t, and they were [00:50:40] paying Sophie’s legal bills. Otherwise, she wouldn’t have been able to afford Shapiro, or Megan, to come in and bend the system to her will. So while I can afford them their initial shock, they were sitting in these hearings.

[00:50:52] Andrea VO: They’ve seen everything I’ve presented to you in this series, and likely much more, because nothing from the actual dependency proceedings [00:51:00] is in the public record. And when you keep supporting someone long past when you should have known better, as I discussed with my mom, Karen, you’re no longer just enabling abuse.

[00:51:10] Andrea VO: You’re participating in it. You’ve been presented with so much evidence about the abuse, so much evidence about the, about her deception, [00:51:20] and you have chosen to disregard all of that and give her the ability to keep doing this. I mean, somebody, it’s like, that’s the thing is like, and you know, it’s come down to the same thing with Sophie.

[00:51:29] Andrea VO: Somebody has to keep paying the bills. Like eventually, if you run out of people who are supporting you, if you get to the end of the line. So it’s like the people who [00:51:40] are, like the people who are doing that, like you are supporting an abuser. You’re, you’re, you’re giving them, you might as well be handing them the weapon.

[00:51:51] Andrea VO: You know, it’s sort of like that is the weapon.

[00:51:53] Karen Dunlop: I have mixed feelings about Andy’s parents frequently and. I, sometimes I feel really [00:52:00] sorry for them because, oh my gosh, what did they get into? On the other hand, I’m really angry because they were and are in a position to protect the kids and they wouldn’t

[00:52:13] Andrea VO: step up.

[00:52:14] Andrea VO: So I think for like grandparents and aunts, like even, you know, if they’re listening, [00:52:20] like, I hope that they are telling those kids. That they have attributes other than being sick, that they are capable, that they are whole people who deserve love and recognition. And they’ve failed them in so many ways, but I hope that they are still, because we didn’t get that chance.

[00:52:39] Andrea VO: We [00:52:40] didn’t get that chance to like, love them and care for them. And like, I, we were so villainized. And like, Really watching, for me watching you and dad be villainized when like I know what good parents you were and grew up in the same house and like I know how much we would have loved to be in [00:53:00] those kids lives.

[00:53:01] Karen Dunlop: Oh, we would have. And they miss out on so

[00:53:02] Andrea VO: much.

[00:53:04] Karen Dunlop: Yeah, I feel like we had so much love to give and didn’t have the opportunity. So, and I think about how much we love your kids and how much we enjoy spending time with them. [00:53:20] And it’s such a special relationship and you know, and it’s, it’s just a shame that Megan’s children have missed out on that.

[00:53:29] Karen Dunlop: And we’ve missed out on that.

[00:53:31] Myrriah: The son is a teenager. He has access to the internet. Like he could be listening and figuring things out. And like, what would you, what would you want to tell them [00:53:40] now? And then what do you hope for them in the future?

[00:53:43] Karen Dunlop: I hope for good health, mental and physical. I think they have to be so traumatized.

[00:53:51] Karen Dunlop: Um, and I hope they are able to see the situation at some point for what it really is and was. [00:54:00] Maybe they’ll listen to your podcast and realize that people, people did see, people did care. And we did all we could do. I hope that someday they realize that.

[00:54:14] Andrea VO: At the heart of this work that has become so central to my life, it has always been this.[00:54:20]

[00:54:20] Andrea VO: A message to my niece and nephew. A way back, if they should ever be looking for it. And a message to those who are still in their lives. To keep eyes on them. And to reinforce that they are whole people, not just the story their mother wrote for them. I felt a bit conflicted about covering this season’s story because I don’t have [00:54:40] the cooperation of the family, but I ended up feeling that it was all the more important because I believe the Hartmans have turned their back on these children.

[00:54:48] Andrea VO: Anne and Sam eventually went back to Michigan. The conditions we explained earlier in this episode stayed in place for some period of time but were ultimately lifted and the case was officially dismissed with prejudice, [00:55:00] meaning it can’t be brought back to court in November of 2023. The children are back with Sophie, more isolated now than they were before.

[00:55:10] Andrea VO: And Sophie didn’t just follow my sister’s footsteps in her battle to get her children back. She kept on with the Megan Carter playbook. Next step, sue everyone.

[00:55:24] Preview

[00:55:24] [00:55:20]

[00:55:24] Andrea VO: Next time.

[00:55:25] Det. Lee: So, her attorneys are definitely going to, and they did, in their documentation. They use very inflammatory language that make it seem like it’s a conspiracy that on an absolute lack of evidence.

[00:55:42] Credits

[00:55:42] [00:55:40]

[00:55:42] Andrea VO: Nobody Should Believe Me is written, hosted, and executive produced by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our senior producer is Mariah Gossett. Story editing by Nicole Hill. Research and fact checking by Erin Ajayi. And our associate producer is Greta Stromquist. Mixing and [00:56:00] engineering by Robin Edgar. Administrative support from Nola Karmusch.

[00:56:04] Andrea VO: Special thanks to my APSAC committee colleagues, Dr. Jim Hamilton and Detective Michael Lee. Thank you also to Olivia LaVoiece and to my mom and dad. It was very special to be able to sit down with them for the show and we will be releasing those full conversations in a future episode. [00:56:20] If you or anyone you know is a victim or survivor of medical child abuse, please go to Munchausensupport.

[00:56:26] Andrea VO: com to connect with professionals who can help.